User talk:Franken Kesey/Titan Manifesto (3.5e Optimized Character Build)
heading, to make people happy wait, it mentions plushies... are you trying to make living construct undead? because that doesn't work. grey vamp mentions having a humanoid type, which a plushie doesn't have. here we go again --NameViolation 23:05, April 30, 2010 (UTC) :It doubly doesn't work. Grey Vampire is not a template, and therefore can't be applied to anything, let alone plushies specifically. Much like previous builds, this one is straight up not valid. --Quantumboost 23:45, April 30, 2010 (UTC) ::I am a bit curious what the point of one would be. While impossible (as above, not a humanoid origin race), even if you did, all you'd get is a Small sized Grey Vampire who could get hurt by construct-bane weapons, take plushie-only classes, and get none of their powers. It's not really a template in spite of being created from other species, it works like the Hellbred from FCII, "I was once a man, and now I'm something else". ::And I got ninja'd. Ha ha. -- Eiji Hyrule 23:48, April 30, 2010 (UTC) :::The grey vampires appeared to be a template. It would be wise to specify that they only keep the subtype. Have fixed thanks for catching. :::The original purpose of the plushie was to increase defence. It is the only tiny race on this wiki - and the living construct thing added a bit more. It occored to me that controlling from 54-77 creatures would do plenty of damage, so why not build the defence? Thanks --Franken Kesey 00:38, May 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::Actually plushies are small with slight build (an aspect you'd lose in the transition). You may be thinking of the mousa, who are actually tiny (and flavorfully related to the plushies). I cannot comment on the build itself since I haven't read it in depth, I'll leave that for other heads. That is all. -- Eiji Hyrule 01:15, May 1, 2010 (UTC) Optimasation Dare I ask, yet again, this common question; but controling 54-77 monsters is not optimised? --Franken Kesey 00:40, May 1, 2010 (UTC) :that is totally optimized... for levels 7-10. non optimized level 20 dread necro with "only" an 18 cha gets 160 hd. of undead. with a few items and abilities and feats you get get damn near a thousand.--NameViolation 01:42, May 1, 2010 (UTC) :: There's that... and then there's the fact that you don't qualify for your prestige classes, there's a spelling error in the name, and a few other things. --Ghostwheel 01:53, May 1, 2010 (UTC) :::Or you could be a conduit with the bone sphere and have no limits, though they might not be especially capable. Not sure that the current build provides for capable minions, but just saying. -- Jota 04:01, May 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::Quality>Quantity; anything with a decent AoE will decimate your "54-77 monsters"--Tavis McCricket 04:28, May 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::Advanced many of the creatures perminatly summoned. The Necromancer (3.5e Class) can summon 160CR of monsters; while this build has (no need to summon) 173CR, and can summon 63CR more - better? :::::What prestige classes does it not qualify for? How would you spell it? :::::The more advanced creatures that I added might be better than massive amounts of minions from the Bone (3.5e Sphere). (He does have 891 followers - could they replace the creatures from the sphere). :::::Fix for more Quality - with same amount of creatures! Thanks --Franken Kesey 00:11, May 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::::The DR isnt 46. you only get the highest. you still have all 3, so if they have a silver weapon they still got dr/bludg and magic and if they get past that then they worry about 6/good. also isnt the silver dr 15, not 25? 1/2 hd + 5, unless i missed something. and as its been pointed out, AC 40 is basically the standard for ac at 20th level. so 45 is just as good as someone using combat expertise. --NameViolation 05:22, May 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Fixed DR and army size. Thanks for catching --Franken Kesey 07:23, May 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::My major critique is that you are using Epic Leadership rules when you are not an epic character. This is, of course, impossible. According to the page on epic feats, epic feast can only be chosen "at 21st level, and every three levels thereafter". While I would presume that the part about every three levels after is not set in stone, the fact remains that you cannot take epic feats until level 21. This means that you don't qualify for any Leadership benefits beyond the leadership score of 25. Thus, the whole premise of this build after that point seems to fall apart. There is no conceivable way that a level 20 character could control multiple monsters all with CR's almost equal to their own (a la CR 18 black dragons and CR 20 ghasts). The Necromancer that you cited previously is also different in that it only allows for the control of mindless undead, which rules out just about every really powerful undead in existence (nightshades, hullathoins, mummy lord clerics, even ghouls or ghasts). This allows it to have a fair amount of creatures that serve their function as meat shields without necessarily winning the encounter for you. None of the creatures summoned by that class should come close to its level, whereas half of the creatures that this build is supposed to control could probably butcher it without effort. On that same train of thought, having zombie rangers or barbarians is also impossible; as mindless creatures, zombies cannot have class levels unless they are awakened. They just have the same amount of HD (more, in fact) than they did in life. ::::::::As a Grey Vampire, you are an undead and, I would guess, no longer mortal, meaning that by taking Grey Vampire you no longer qualify for the hellmaster prestige class. That's the only one I see as a potential problem. Plus, the Child Necromancer feat can only be taken at first level as written, so you might want to adjust your feat progression. - TG Cid 19:05, May 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::To correct a mistake I made above, no Hit Dice from class levels are applicable when zombified. All HD from class levels are dropped, and all remaining Hit Dice are doubled. So basically all your level 18 wood elf rangers are absolutely useless (even if you could have a level 18 wood elf ranger, which you couldn't). So crappy, in fact, that a level 1 fighter could probably kill them (maybe not, but that was just to accentuate how awful they are). Also, for future reference, no creature with more than 10 remaining Hit Dice after dropping class levels can be made into a zombie, so going to fish around for the most racial HD possible will only go so far. - TG Cid 19:15, May 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::Then how should I stack the leadership feats? I just was using the epic rules on followers to simplify my calculations - I'm open to an alternative. But if you check out the feats, all the cohort's are at the corect CR. Will fix the mindless undead - but this should not effect overall CR control. (right?) ::::::::::Will fix hellmaster. ::::::::::Will remove the zombie templates. Thanks --Franken Kesey 19:25, May 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::As I understand it, if your score is higher than what's listed on the table, you're SOL.--Tavis McCricket 20:32, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::With the recent level changes, he gains Epic Leadership as a class feature. --Franken Kesey 20:36, May 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::::" At 10th level, this bonus increases to 2 levels. In addition, you automatically qualify as having Epic Leadership if your leadership score is 25 or more. " You only have 5 levels of that PRC, so you don't get it.--Tavis McCricket 20:43, May 3, 2010 (UTC) Cohorts How is it that you get CR 31 cohorts when you're only CR 20? And you can't apply the Ghost template to a Magneton, as it's an Elemental and the Elemental type isn't one of those specifically enumerated by the Ghost template. --Quantumboost 22:07, May 2, 2010 (UTC) For the love of Ao "A monster's Challenge Rating (CR) tells you the level of the party for which that monster is a good challenge. A monster of CR 5 is an appropriate challenge for a group of four 5th level characters." '-PG 48, Dungeon Masters Guide (3.5E)' Nothing in this build is remotely a challenge for a lvl 544 character, much less four of them. Stop counting CR like it's purely additive. Even when it works, it's a horribly subjective system. If you must, simply measure things in terms of hit dice, or ECL. --Tavis McCricket 19:48, May 4, 2010 (UTC) :Will fix to ECL/HD. How should I calculate it? Is the current equation ok? --Franken Kesey 21:32, May 4, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm not the person to ask about that. --Tavis McCricket 22:45, May 4, 2010 (UTC) :::No. It's not. If you want an equation, you need to calculate 2^(CR/2) for each creature in the pool, sum that all together, take the log2 of it (or the log10 of it and divide by log10(2) if you don't have a calculator that does non-10 logs), and then multiply that by 2. Round that number to the nearest digit. So yeah... it is not easy to math it out. You're better off cracking open your DMG and using the ECL charts in it (which aren't on the wiki to the best of my knowledge), because those better take into account how it starts to break down when you get large pools of CR creatures into a pool. - TarkisFlux 23:19, May 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::Not to be harsh, or harp on the same subject, but I'm not just talking about this build (in regards to the folly of adding CR). You used "CR defeated in one round" as a basis to judge a build to be optimized in the past (Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde). This is a terrible idea. Generally, it's best to weigh builds against the SGT, or something like it.--Tavis McCricket 02:19, May 5, 2010 (UTC) :::::Also, a literal army of creatures of a given CR is often merely "possibly disadvantageous terrain" for a CR-appropriate opponent of more than 8 CR higher than the individuals. So even if you use the algorithm Tarkis mentioned, you probably should even cap it at 8 or 9 CR above the highest-CR creature you can muster, including yourself. --Quantumboost 07:57, May 5, 2010 (UTC)